Curse

FexFX · Nov 13, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prospero

It shouldn't be MY responsibility to help others improve thier game unless they ask. I'm not so condicending as to "school" people into doing what I want them to do.

I like to get on and get things done. I don't like spamming for or building a group in town. It takes time; time that IMO doesn't pay off. The real problem with PuGs is that no one has any interests but thier own in mind. It is far too much of a hassle (for me) to work out team builds when most peole don't carea about anything but beating the mission.

Guildies at least have some sort of reputation to uphold. Why would I waste my time with unknown PuGers when I could be 'schooling' a guildie who will later help me when I need it? Let's not forget the whole TS/Vent aspect of Guild groups. PuGs have no way of communicating in an effective way. Too much interpretation is skewed when we have to resort to text communication.

Heroes at least make it easier to invest in Guildies because people who come to help will now have hereos and we won't have good Guild groups going bad because we needed a PuG monk or MM.

A friendly offer of help should never bee seen as condescending, and I do consider it to be at least partially your responsibility...afterall your playing and playstyle have an impact on the environment you play within...at the very least you should consider the effect this has on the community as a whole. You are responsible for how you interract with others. By no means am I suggesting that you have been specifically tasked with training every n00b you meet, that would be absurd. I am merely suggesting that you consider the idea that you can have a positive influence on an environment you believe to be suffering from a degenerative malady. You can either choose to be an effective part of a treatment for this disease, or you become a symptom even by your inaction. That is all. I never charged you with the job of helping everyone.

FexFX · Nov 13, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

It might sound elitist and selfish, but... Schooling random people takes time and effort I don't wish to spend on someone who likely won't change their ways anyway. Ignorance and idiocy abound amongst a vast part of the GW populace, which you already know if you've read some of the "nerf plx" topics here. Finding a PUG who will listen to constructive criticism and adapt is nigh impossible, finding a PUG who does not need schooling in some form or another is even more difficult.

Finding a skilled person on the other hand isn't hard at all - I just grab guildies, since they know what they're up to, filling blanks with heroes. Hero & Hench Hermit? I'll take that title anyday, over the title Too Busy Teaching Morons How To Play To Proceed With The Game Himself.

Actually, and this might surprise you, I empathize with your point of view and understand completely where you are coming from. However, I would like you to consider the answer to one question: Where did your guildies come from?

Unless they were all people you knew in Real Life or friends of friends in Real Life, then they probably started off as PUGs...thus without weeding through PUGs your guild would never have existed...

Taking a bit of time out now and then to try and farm the n00bs for future vets is worth the investment of your time.

If you include just one n00b in you group occasionally, you are doing more good for GW than if you don't. In fact if you scorn the n00bs completely you are contributing to the degeneration of the community as a whole.

That's what I am fighting against...players becoming hermits, or guild elitists.

Yu Liang · Nov 13, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyphen

I did Thunderhead Keep last night. A monk left because he didn't get a gold.

Tell me why I shouldn't use Heroes instead.

Because you still did it. And in PUG's, for every silly person who seems to have the intellect of a slice of pie, there has been for me, someone who I met and had an enjoyable time with - a person who I would later ask "Hey, do you want to do Mission X with me?". The advantage of heroes is that with that person I can then do the mission with heroes. This way I get the enjoyment of making a friend - but then I don't HAVE to continue with the monk/mesmer who took Ineptitude as his elite.

I've found out that heroes give me two options - I can look for PUG's, but failing that I don't have to wait hours or mass pm hundreds of old friends. Heroes give me the backup option - I don't have to wait hours in Thunderhead for a competent monk, but I also don't have to ignore everyone. Completing the game is fun - but I enjoy the social aspects of the game as well. If the person who didn't have an extremely useful skill bar was willing to take on board constructive criticism, and more people stopped yelling "LOL MENDIN R 4 NUBZ" perhaps PUG's would be more effective.

Shaggeh · Nov 13, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

I would just like to remind you about hero's are not a replacement in coop mission as real players.

Yes they are.

That's exactly what they are there for.

Heroes are far superior to nearly any PuG I've ever been in, all told. With them around there's little reason for me to actually join a group of players. I've got more than enough GW friends in my guild, they allow me to complete any mission I wish, so why should I play with random people?

And don't say because I have a chance of meeting nifty people in a PuG, because I honestly don't care. There are other, better ways of meeting intelligent, fun people than PuGing.

That being said, however, I find that I actually PuG now that I have my Heroes more than I ever have in the past, and that's for one specific reason:

I completed Nightfall pretty quickly with my Dervish, and took him to Tyria (and, now Cantha.). Hardly anyone that doesn't have NF has really spent time playing with a Dervish. I wanted to show off.

Prospero · Nov 13, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by FexFX

A friendly offer of help should never bee seen as condescending, and I do consider it to be at least partially your responsibility...afterall your playing and playstyle have an impact on the environment you play within...at the very least you should consider the effect this has on the community as a whole.

Agreed. Here's the problem: No matter how nice I try to be, someone will think I'm being bossy. While this may or may not bother me, I have actually helped promote the "PuGs are bad" mentality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FexFX

You can either choose to be an effective part of a treatment for this disease, or you become a symptom even by your inaction. That is all. I never charged you with the job of helping everyone.

In my opinion, recruiting, then training Guildies is a more effective approach than helping random PuG groups. My current role in my Guild does not afford me the opportunity or time to PuG. It's a waste of time for me to help improve the community when I have plenty of need within my Guild. Quite frankly, it shouldn't be on my shoulders to PuG as some sort of welfare system. There is far too much annonymity in GW to effectively change the percieved attitude. THAT is why we have heroes.

Using Heroes in no way contributes to bad PuG groups. I've said this before: Heroes actually IMPROVE PuG groups by removing the subset of the population that don't want to PuG but have no realistic means at success. 'Hero Hermits' now have a limited impact on GW culture and are impacted less by it. In my opinion that will, over time, improve attitudes all around as there will be fewer 'rage quitters' and 'noobs'. These types don't want to play with others and no longer have to.

Gigashadow · Nov 13, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by FexFX

So basically you are not willing to put forth any effort to improve the situation because it's easier for you to use Heroes...That's cool, I can understand that point of view...But what would it hurt to add one PUG to your party of Heroes and Henches? School just one, or maybe, if you are lucky, find just one that does not need schooling! At least in this way you are still being social and helping the community by participating rather than becomming a Hero & Hench Hermit.

More often than not, people are not interested in learning what they are doing wrong or adjusting their build. If you try to tell that monk that Aura of Restoration isn't doing much for him, or the wammo that orison + breeze aren't the best use of his skill slots, you are likely to get rude comments back. You'll typically get "Don't tell me how to play". Ok fine, I won't, and that's why I use heroes or guildies instead.

cellardweller · Nov 13, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by FexFX

Actually, and this might surprise you, I empathize with your point of view and understand completely where you are coming from. However, I would like you to consider the answer to one question: Where did your guildies come from?

Unless they were all people you knew in Real Life or friends of friends in Real Life, then they probably started off as PUGs...thus without weeding through PUGs your guild would never have existed...

Every good guild I've ever been associated with has formed out of game by collecting like minded individuals via website advertising.

B Ephekt · Nov 13, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

I want warriors with 16 weapon mastery, that actually have attack skills other than Cyclone Axe, Power Attack or Penetrating Blow. I don't want warriors with 7 stance and Healing Breeze.

I don't want eles with Starburst and Firestorm.

I don't want monks with Healing Breeze and Mending, and I want them to actually grasp the conecpts of not over healing and energy management.

The Hero MM is better than any PUG I've ever seen.

etc...

Most pvers are notably worse than heros, so when people learn to play I'll stop using NPCs.

Mai · Nov 14, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Every good guild I've ever been associated with has formed out of game by collecting like minded individuals via website advertising.

QFT either that or just hanging around the area talking to people. All my long time GW friends were made just chatting in a outpost not in a PuG.

Frostlight · Nov 14, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by FexFX

Actually, and this might surprise you, I empathize with your point of view and understand completely where you are coming from. However, I would like you to consider the answer to one question: Where did your guildies come from?

As some others have mentioned, from websites and forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FexFX

If you include just one n00b in you group occasionally, you are doing more good for GW than if you don't. In fact if you scorn the n00bs completely you are contributing to the degeneration of the community as a whole.

That's what I am fighting against...players becoming hermits, or guild elitists.

Is it a sin to be a hermit?

glountz · Nov 14, 2006, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

The Hero MM is better than any PUG I've ever seen.

Actually he is quite bad. For my taste. Yes he knows how to raise minions as fast as someone dies, but he has no clue of of e-management (that is - raising costy minions when full of energy, cheap when not), of positioning, and will follow his minions to heal/cast death nova on them even if they are stuck stupidly trying to reach mobs on another level - even if it means to separate from the group and die. And no, he won't follow the flag you will put at your feet to keep him from following his minions. So no, he is not that good.

To Fexfx:
I like how you want to improve community by plenty of goodness. Problem is that the gap between veteran and newbies have so drastically increased that veterans don't want to loose anymore time with newbies. I play from the beginning, and stopped PUGging far ago, since factions in fact. Some facts you have to take into consideration:

- My Friendlist is composed by PvP friends (mostly from TA), and real life friends. My guild is composed by people recruited outside PUGs. I NEVER got a friend/guildie from a PUG. Period.

- IMHO, Pugs are forming either by people who drastically need social relations, or people without enough skill to complete the quest/mission with henchies (Period. People capable to hench a mission won't loose one hour just forming a correct group before going). Either case is problematic.
*I don't need for instance e-social relations. Why? Because I'm not a sociopath. I have friends. Family. In REAL LIFE. Guild wars is a game, and I consider I can't make serious relations with people I will NEVER meet. Yes I have (or had) very good e-guildies/friends. Yes we discuss real life topics. But yes when it comes to meet to drink a beer in whatever town of Europe, or to give real life names, things generally stop. If you start to complain that you miss "e-community and e-friends" just start asking yourself what is wrong in your real life.
*I don't need PuGing as I finished Factions with 10/13 master with only henchies. I didn't want to waste my e-friends'time just to make them help me when I could go alone. I kept their precious time and mine (as I am a casual player) to chat, laugh, and PvP. When I went PVE with friends it was generally for farming purposes.

- Pugging has too much drawbacks.
* Pugs generally don't have voice communication device. Hench/heroes now "does" as you can make them follow orders.
* Pugs Are reaaaallly loooooooooooong to create. Even before heroes. Gathering the "correct" classes, and adapting the builds to the classes you managed to gather is really long. Too long for a casual player.
* Pugs generally fail. This leads to cookie-cutter build mentality to avoid failure. So classes like mesmers, rangers, sins, etc... Have a hard time getting in a group. No, Eles are not the only one capable to do damage. And even ritualists can tank, just look at farming builds. This "class-racism", as I especially met with my Tyrian mesmer, is seriously reducing your Pugging options. Do you imagine that, to be taken in a PuG for the last mission of Prophecies, I had to change my W/mo to W/N? And to replace Rebirth by Rez signet of course. It was a failure anyway, so I henched it (with one additionnal friend) after 11 unsuccessful tries with a PuG. (That was the times where I was thinking that PuGs were better than Henchies. Fool I was.) Got it with bonus.

For the newbies, let them go and let them learn by themselves. Feel free to give your time to them if you have it. Being a casual player, I just don't want to waste my precious egotist daily hour of playing in a failure when I can avoid it.
They will have to learn eventually, just in order to finish the game. Nightfall is hard, and it's for the better. The newbie WILL HAVE to learn something if he wants to finish the game.
Generally when people ask noobish things I say: "Google is your friend. And guildwiki.org is also your friend".
The best way to help newbies is to teach them how to help themselves.

birdfoot · Nov 14, 2006, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Lol, then Dervishes and Assassins would have all the right to solo with hero/hench then. Cos most of the time, it's not they who do not want a group but rather the other way around.

I'd agree that most of the players should try to PUG when possible, it's more fun that way. However, I'd recommend doing that only when one feels like doing so, if not just do whatever way is preferred. PUGs are fun but not all of them are enjoyable. I spam for LFG in mission spots for a good 10 mins using a Dervish and even tried inviting players, but out of all missions in Nightfall, I've only been able to join a group for a handful of times. Out of all groups, only 1 was enjoyable even when we failed multiple times as a group. The others are all made up off smartasses who didn't wanna work with each other (most of the time, just one smartass). I've been booted off from a PUG who eventually ended getting Expert's from the Varesh mish (heard from another group member) becos the leader wasn't receptive to any failure (my only attempt with them failed and he prolly figured 2 Dervishes too many); so I went solo and got a Master's with Melonni. The thing is, PUGs are fun, but only if you happen to meet the right people. My experience playing GW is that these people only appear 5% of the time. I consider playing with a good PUG a privilige, almost like a bonus to me. I love fun PUGs. PUG was how I eventually got invited into my current guild, [DBD], and they are lotsa fun. But then again, I wouldn't want to spend all my time looking for a good PUG, let it be a pleasant surprise.

Nemon · Nov 14, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Amazes me how some people can make "social" sound like a dirty word. What is drastically social anyway? Is that the name for anyone who doesn't like playing alone in a dark room for 10 hours grinding eight characters through three chapters? I guess i am drastically social then, i had better go seek help.

The people who grind through the game on many characters, which i admit there are many, need to see the difference between themselves and the casual gamer who just wants to go play a mish for fun. There is no such thing as _wasting time_ when you're having a laugh, noob party or not. This is very telling of the difference in attitudes and goals.

You may just want the most predictable way to get your many characters through the chapters, but there are the other players who just want to play the story and have a laugh. If i was trying to grind through the game then sure it would irk me too when i get fools in my party. It would be _wasting_ my time when i am trying to do something in the most efficient reliable way possible.

When you engage with people you cannot guarantee what you'll always get, and that's not a _bad_ thing either. One of the appealing things about PuGs is variety, you never know how it will play out. So, while you like to grind away with bots who always play the same, i prefer to play with others and experience some variety. How they play is often irrelevant to how much fun i have, and that's not me acknowledging how terrible PuGs are either. My experience with PuGs is completely opposite to some of those described in here. The reason? The difference between mine and yours attitude!

The whole reason you have bad experiences with PuGs is because _you_ don't want them in the first place. It's like complaining about a screwdriver being horrible to use while you're trying to hammer a nail in with it. There is _nothing_ wrong with PuGs for people who _want_ to PuG.

glountz · Nov 14, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

Amazes me how some people can make "social" sound like a dirty word. What is drastically social anyway? Is that the name for anyone who doesn't like playing alone in a dark room for 10 hours grinding eight characters through three chapters? I guess i am drastically social then, i had better go seek help.

Being social is going out in a pub with real friends, dating with real life girls, not sitting in the dark behind a computer playing with people you will never meet, thus having an illusionary feeling of being social because you have the anonymous social security of internet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

The people who grind through the game on many characters, which i admit there are many, need to see the difference between themselves and the casual gamer who just wants to go play a mish for fun. There is no such thing as _wasting time_ when you're having a laugh, noob party or not. This is very telling of the difference in attitudes and goals.

Many people I know don't want to spend an afternoon to "have a good laugh" with newbies. One, it is insulting for the "so-called" noobs as you muck them, two, you didn't go further in the game. I have a limited time dedicated to playing. So it must be spent efficiently. And if I feel lonely, I just chat on the guild chat or with friends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

My experience with PuGs is completely opposite to some of those described in here. The reason? The difference between mine and yours attitude! The whole reason you have bad experiences with PuGs is because _you_ don't want them in the first place.

You'll have to explain me how, not pugging, I can have bad experience of PuGs. I had bad PuG experiences, actually, by Pugging a lot. And it happened one day that enough was enough. Now I PuG with guildies or friends that have TS. This should be a prerequisite to even start a PuG.
And you'll have to explain how, when I want to PuG, my "anti-PuG attitude" makes my PuG failing while I know exactly how to perform the mission, as I can do it alone with master's reward with crappy henchmen (to do mission with henchs (not heroes), you must have real knowledge of aggro control and positioning).

Seriously, I'm not "anti-PuG" either. Feel free to PuG if you want. I don't forbid people from PuGing. Just don't dictate your way of playing to other people, as pro-PuG people seem to do a lot. I'm really tired of these threads and people in outposts ranting about this. Especially when they begin to rant in an outpost where I was wandering for a long time (chating with people), and I did not receive any blind invite or clear invite from them to PuG before they start to rant. I went deeply into PVE with the release of Nighfall, but I already miss PvP.

Just let people play the game the way they want. Please.

Nemon · Nov 14, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

You cannot redefine social for the sake of argument. In your own definition you and anyone else who posts on a forum would be drastically social, hiding behind the anonymity of the interweb.

I never said having a laugh equated to mocking noobs. In fact there is a great difference between laughing privately, giving encouragement to do better, and just plain mocking. Another example of differences in our attitudes. You also equate having a laugh to performing poorly, not progressing, and as i've said in other posts this is not my experience.

I thought i explained quite well why PuGs don't work for you and a few others here. You don't _want_ a PuG! What you want is to hench, it suits your goals and personality better, and because of this i bet your attitude in PuGs contribute to their failure. Knowing how to master a mission and how to behave in a PuG party are totally different things.

There are many players who have many characters and know many classes and skills inside out. Sure, those are smart players, but most all missions in NF can be completed with pretty random PuGs anyway. It's only when you come to elite missions that require exact skill sets that builds and careful team work are really pivotal to success. imho of course.

No one has dictated or suggested anything in the game change that would affect the way henchers play _atall_!!!!!!! I find it extremely frustrating to keep reading replies as if someone had posted demands that hench be nerfed, removed, banned, or PuGs become the only way to play.

You play _alone_, so why do you even care if PuGers catch a break? It wont make any difference to you either way. You are disagreeing and arguing over something that is of virtually no consequence to you at all.

Sanji · Nov 14, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

You are disagreeing and arguing over something that is of virtually no consequence to you at all.

And you are responding in kind.

Cebe · Nov 14, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Basically it seems to me that there are a lot of competent people out there, and a lot of incompetent ones. The incompetent players have no clue about what skills go well together, and although they are playing for fun...their stupidity makes the competent players feel that the only way they will get sense out of the game is to go with Heroes & Hench. I know this since this is how I feel most of the time. For example...in Rilhon Refuge you will ALWAYS get some stupid wammo turn off the water pump when you really might as well just not...thus this ruins the bonus for everyone else.

What I propose is the Guild Wars Competency Exam. You go off the the Temple of Balthazar and demonstrate your skills against various enemies / environmental effects / etc.. Then you get "awarded" a title of how clever you are. Problem solved.

I'm sure there will be people about to flame me for that....I'M NOT BEING SERIOUS. Stop. Re-read that.... I AM NOT BEING SERIOUS. Mmmkay? Also, in case people are about to start with arguing that we already have this system...it's called 'Rank'....no. Just no.

birdfoot · Nov 14, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

And you are responding in kind.

Lol, that's a good one!

glountz · Nov 14, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Nemon, I would PuG if it was productive and not just frustrating. But seriously, PuGs are just bad most of the time, excepted if you are a "rusher" (finishing the game in one week), where people know how to go fast and breeze through missions.
I will PuG again when:
- Guild wars will have built-in audio communication program which you will be able to turn on/off.
- Guild Wars will actually have ultra hard training missions on the noob island. So you learn something before going further. I thought this was the case the first time I met instructor Ng in Factions but it was seriously a joke. Make training quests with high reward that require group coordination and a correct build (build being explained before, for example, mobs doing a healing bubble requiring strong enchantment removal etc...)
- Guild wars will actually show the skillbar/energy/health of EACH PARTY MEMBER instead of just the heroes you control.
- Guild wars will be less harsh on new players, giving them poor and too few skills to compete with full of Elite veterans' builds. Giving them at the end of the noob island a set of elite skills they could choose at least one from as well as ugly but max equipment would be a really good thing (as a reward for hard training quests, for example).

Until PuGing will been greatly improved, I will go hench/guildies. Yes, I don't play alone, I have guildies for that, too (as you seem to think that "anti-PuG" people always play alone, which is clearly not the case).

Rera · Nov 14, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

So let's see ... where has this argument gone in 12 pages ...

Oh, it's the same damn thing over and over.

There are two camps here that won't be reconciled.
- PuG camp. Casual gamers, people who want a social experience, don't care too much about failing a mission, kicks back and has fun.
- Vet camp. Want to do everything as efficiently as possible. Social experience unnecessary. Incompetence is the greatest sin.

The Vet camp will always think that PuGing is a phenomenal waste of time.
The PuG camp will always think that playing an MMO alone is self-defeating.

So what are we still arguing about?